Science in Islam, Part 3: Ash’ari predestination


100 comments

  1. This pro-Mutazilite propaganda is dangerous. The reason for their eradication is its incoherence with Quran and Hadith. Such as them rejecting muttawatir ahadith because it does not seem feasible to them. Issue with this is that the Quran is muttawatir too, what is preventing you from rejecting its authenticity and truthfulness? It is for this reason too that the scholars deem rejection of muttawatir Ahadith to be kufr.

  2. 12:25 how accurate is this map? I was under the impression that the Seljuks didn't control Sistan and Makran. Let alone Sindh.

  3. I don't think Muslim learning declined, as in the past the average person didn't have access to education, but more that it failed to keep up with modern standards.

  4. Muslims Jews Chinese Hindu all had advanced science and math. Europe learned alot from others.

    Tolerance of others is the main issue today.
    The Moors were tolerant educated peoples and lived in relative peace with the Jews. Saladin out the Jews back in Israel as it says in sura s of Qu'ran . Maybe Islam return to golden age. Salom Akk Shalom

  5. I love your videos shirvan. Great series on the history of Islam. Any ideas on how we can reverse the course of history today?

  6. So it is thanks to the eEuropean crusaders who killed all the scientists during the crusades why the islamic world is so backwards? lol. I think its Islam and the people who follow it, its True Believers. This goes to any religion but Islam has the most fanatics today and the one that seems to cause the most problems. There are no scientist because islam and its fanatic kill rational people.

  7. Occasionalism does not negate scientific inquiry, it only states the causal force is illusive through the scientific method and it is. Science can only determine correlation, not causality. This is why in statistics we do not affirm a hypothesis, we fail to reject a hypothesis.
    Saying Occassionalism makes the world incomprehensible is simply not accurate. The very concept cites Hukm 'Aadi, the closest thing to "Natural Laws", but says that the laws are actually GOd's actions.

  8. The torch of science were carried by civilizations. Muslim scientists adopted and developed the Greek science. The major science civilizations and phases started first with the Greek then the Islamic then the Renaissance then the modern technological phase. However, humanity will go back to earliest forms of life after WW3 end our technological life. Among all the times of humanity the Islamic times were the golden times of humanity in which there were wealth, justice and world peace. These are facts by the way not personal point of view.

  9. I love your series' on Islamic history, I know so little of it and a lot of events are hard to connect but you make it easy.

  10. Excellent. Dark Ages, or eras when societies turn away from education, have always fascinated me, but almost no one covers the subject. This was great, thanks bud.

  11. Iranian we wuzers out on full blast in the comments. Why do Iranian people love to take credit for the achievements of everyone? Ibn Sina was Afghan.

  12. So lets get this straight the Islamic world was at the forefront of "scientific" achievement when their was very little science being done?

  13. Completely unscientific , the so called Islamic science was concepts stolen from Greeks, Indians etc and translated by guys like Al bairuni, khwarizmi and travelling traders. Algebra was a straight lift from India too ,

  14. If I'm not mistaken u said Muslim missionaries converted the the sejik. Were these the same missionaries the disposed of the thriving buddist population of present day Pakistan Afghanistan?

  15. Imagine how great the Middle East would be if the rational Mutazites won and the fundamentalists lost. Religious fundamentalism is absolute cancer to humanity

  16. Terrible video series you're conflating the philosophers and ahlul tawheed wal-adl (mutazilla).
    Let me tell you a mutazilli belief, Allah could send a saint to hell and a sinner to heaven and it would be just.
    Scientific advancement didn't stop because of Ashari rise to power, al-Ghazzali "banning" science is a myth, many ashari scholars encouraged platonic reasoning (kalam) and the golden age continued due to economic circumstances and the access to knowledge rather than the theological stance of the Abbasids.

  17. Hey, love the show, but 2 quick questions:
    1. You talk about the debate the discovery of the atom caused in early Islam, however according to most records, the Atom was discovered in 1897 with the discovery of the electron, so what are you referring to in the video?
    2. What movie are the video clips in this video from? Looks interesting.

    BTW a great movie related to the subject of these videos is "The Physician". Worth watching!

    Thanks!

  18. Am I the only one who wish he didnt just do politics and did stuff like electric cars, history of planes, or even political topics like healthcare?

  19. So in the simple words "we need to revive and support the good Islamic version that gave birth to the advancement of core sciences like Algebra, Algorithm, Medicine and eradicate other version of Islam that seek to oppose and to decline it"

  20. Islam is the truth! Everything in our universe submits to the Creator in a axis point. From the smallest atom where the electrons, protons, and neutrons circle around a SINGLE point, to the Muslims performing Hajj in which they circle around a SINGLE point, to the biggest Galaxies in our universe circling around a SINGLE point. Only those who use their God given intellect can see the truth while disbelievers use their free will (test) to fool themselves to be all a "coincidence.

  21. Islam is the truth! Everything in our universe submits to the Creator in a axis point. From the smallest atom where the electrons, protons, and neutrons circle around a SINGLE point, to the Muslims performing Hajj in which they circle around a SINGLE point, to the biggest Galaxies in our universe circling around a SINGLE point. Only those who use their God given intellect can see the truth while disbelievers use their free will (test) to fool themselves to be all a "coincidence.

  22. I always said that Shiites are smarter ones, while Sunni are stupid ones. Look at Iran. Iran is NOT the pride of humanity, but compared with Saudi Arabia is light years ahead. They are capable of sending animals in space, soon humans, while in SA 98% graduate in theology. Muslim countries who were separated by the rest of Muslim world, like those in Soviet Union or Yugoslavia also had a progress. When Saudi missionaries came in the 90's situation in those countries become worse and science and freedom regressed.

  23. Science and Religion plurally incompatible creating Humankind into extreme motivations favoring evil.

  24. Overly-simplistic, orientalist analysis couched in binary terms. Theology is a much more nuanced than the way Shirvan is portraying it. Its a shame many muslims (probably not aware of aqidah) are celebrating this video – thats fine since it portrays the high times of the caliphate, but the narrative is completely false and filtered through secular western worldviews.

    Every video just gets worse – him calling the Abbasids 'secular' and the mutazilites 'freethinkers' and those engaged in 'critical thought' is a joke. In any case, the mutazilities are the ancestors to the aristotelian worldview that emerged in Europe via St. Aquinas and was detrimental to science not progressive at all. Even when science became de-theologized in Europe, many of the arguments have their antecedents in Ashari thought. He mentions Asharis believed in predestination like as if thats detrimental to science. Well, its a well-known fact in the philosophy of science that causality is an illusion – most trace it to Hume, but it can be done to the asharis especially al ghazalis argument. Shirvan has no understanding of theology or science, he should stick with history and geopolitics, rather than the intellectual battles that were happening in those times – these are much harder to understand and describe, they cant be in a 10 min video and take a lifetime to understand in fact. This whole video sounds like someone reading a wikipedia article or a chapter of 'Islam for dummies'.

  25. science in islam survived dispite islam, not because of, or thanks to it…. most science was done away with because it is not in the quran…

  26. Nooooooo not FINAL episode…you should go on with the rise and fall of various islamic aqidah and philosophies….

  27. Fatalism,an unproven and un Godly belief that has imprisiomed masses of humans since it's conception into common belief.Abraham is called the father of "ALL' those having faith, another teaching instructs faith without "WORKS" is dead!,Moses taught "CHOOSE' life in order that you may keep 'LIVING', Christ taught ,a man "REAPS" what he "SEWS' all the teachers and many more arguments of common logical thinking dispel the destructive and imprisoned concept of "Fatalism!"

  28. Shirvan the Abbasid Caliphate was NEVER secular, even during the Mu'tazillis. Secularism is a modern Western European invention which calls for a complete separation of Church and state. There was no such thing in the Abbaid Caliphate. A Caliph means a successor and in this context the successor of God's messenger. A Caliph was also known as Amir Al mu'mineen or the commander of the believers.

    If by secular you mean laws were not based on the Quran then you are dead wrong. It's true that the all the Caliphates after the Rashidun Caliphate did not implement the Shariah fully but they all implemented a form of the Shariah. The fact that Christians and Jews were allowes to have their own courts has nothing to do with secularism this was even the case under the Prophet Muhammad.

  29. Islamic countries are shit holes for the sole reason that they are theoracies. More Islam = more ignorance

  30. Your reporte seem very fair and a good try at impartiallity. Im gonna start donating now. Keep 'em comming and holla at me when you get to Sweden and need a place to crash =)

  31. Bro. What are you trying to ease. When the otoman fail. One of the french or Brits said that 'to make sure Islamic caliphate never comes back, destroy it's institutions'. So who cares the sun is now rising in the east and Asians will rise over Europeans. Today Europe spends money to stay compatitive​​ because it's no longer the only expert or knowledge orianted economy. And Arabs only make about 16 % so we do have a lot of non Arabic Muslim scientist and engineers.

  32. Hello there!

    Please take this video and the following list with their respective reasonable grain of salt, as is the true nature of a knowledge seeker.

    Fact check:

    – The Mutazilites and the Hanbalis disagreed and debated on islamic theology, jurisdiction, and predestination (True, if you believe what they said about each other to be disagreement).
    – The Mutazilites stressed the importance of rational thought and free will (Not quite, but partially true. It is complicated to attempt an explaination here…).
    – The Hanbalis promoted the literal interpretation of the Quran (False, that is the philosophy of Thawahiris like Ibn Hazm. What Hanbalis were especially known for is that they stressed the importance of Hadith (they authentic narrations of the prophets sayings and doings), and the interpretations of the early generations' (the companions of the prophet, and the two generations after them) as means of interpreting the holy texts).
    – Ib Hanbal lead an inquisition (False! In fact, Ibn Hanbal was subjected to what might be called the Mutazilites inquisition, but I prefer not to call it an inquisition since that wouldn't be fair to the Mutazilites of the time. The video mentioned a "Hanbali inquisition". If that is referring to the Mutazilites harsh acts against the Hanbalis, then the issue is simply a mistake in wording.).
    – Some of the major different schools of thought accused each other at some time of being unislamic, irrational, or deviant (True).

    This list is by no means comprehensive. In addition, I ask anyone reading to not take what is written without studying and seeking knowledge on the subjects themselves. I did not expect CaspianReport to be knowledgeable or experienced in subjects such as the theological history and division in the Islamic world. If anything, I ask that anyone reading this seek knowledge and truth on this subject from its scholars and sources, not from an oversimplified video with fact-checking issues. I still love CaspianReport, for all the interesting videos they did in the past, and hopefully, in the future.

    Best,
    A friend :]

  33. Brother, with respect and admiration to your channel, I would like to point out that I sense a very strong bias in these series.
    Blaming the downfall of islamic science essentially on a sunni doctrinal establishment is a massive statement that is far from being detached from regional influences of your particular geographic location.

  34. What brilliance may have expressed itself and did not, How many brilliant men of the caliber of Newton, Faraday and Maxwell may have been born and passed away without making any impact due to this brainfuck philosophy of Ashaarism … Infact , I would hazard to say the religion so widely followed on Earth today is not Islam but Ashaarism..

  35. Mu'tazilites and Ash'ari approaches can be explained from the phenomenon shown by experiment in quantum mechanics theory. Things appeared in paradoxes yet there are perfect in its existence… If only we spend a little time to marvel the nature..

  36. great content shirvan can you tell me the geopolitics of South Sudan and Kenya's interest in South Sudan?

  37. I don't think full justice was done to Ja’fari school of thought here as Imam Ja’far is quoted early on saying that the Shia viewpoint is "أمر بین الأمرين " Meaning neither Mu'tazili nor Ash'ari points of view is correct but rather it's something in the middle.

  38. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "He who follows a path in quest of knowledge, Allah will make the path of Jannah easy to him. The angels lower their wings over the seeker of knowledge, being pleased with what he does. The inhabitants of the heavens and the earth and even the fish in the depth of the oceans seek forgiveness for him. The superiority of the learned man over the devout worshipper is like that of the full moon to the rest of the stars (i.e., in brightness). The learned are the heirs of the Prophets who bequeath neither dinar nor dirham but only that of knowledge; and he who acquires it, has in fact acquired an abundant portion."

  39. Excellent work, excellent presentation. Never knew of the Byzantine fatamid alliance. Heres an intrusting fact. After the 4th crusade, city state of Venice had a monopoly on all Byzantine maritime trade until its fall in 1453. Exactly like british east india company controlled all major Chinese ports in the mid 19th century. If you dig enough, youll find out that Venice was the one behind creating the british empire with henry the 8th being virtually puppeted by venice agents. Venice moved from Mediterranean to atlantic when Genoa (Venician Rival) discovered America. Just as the Venetian maritime empire fell the British maritime empire began to rise. My question to you however is that i thought the mongols conquered the abasids?

  40. Crusades happened because Seljuk turks took away territories from byzantine…and the byzantine emperor asked for help

  41. I like your vids .. always .. but I don't like Fakes .. 8:36 upper-right .. these mountains are NEVER possible.
    If this would be right the Himalayas would be over 100km high
    Mount Everest is not even 9 km high the elevation wouldn't be visible over that distance

  42. Where is the footage used in this video from? Is it a TV show? A movie? I can't figure it out and I'm really curious.

  43. the mongols were the biggest cause of the decline of the islamic world by burning millions of books and killing thousands of muslims scientists

    it's like the fall of rome for europe

  44. This is a nice piece, however, the attitude of the Muslim ummah to science and research was influenced by several factors. it wasn't as simplistic as shirvan will put it here. Firstly, the Muslim ummah were always given an opportunity to hear all sides of the debate and reach an opinion. where the majority shared a similar opinion, then the ummah gradually followed that opinion. to begin with, the two holy cities of makka and madina had never been shia in ideology. the general belief is that the population had either been forced to reject shia, or had reneged from their allegiance to Ali. neither view is accurate. just like the ashari vs muutazila debate was taken to the courts of public opinion, so was the matter on shiasm vs sunni. the result was that the muslims themselves reach the conclusion to accept a certain debate or to reject it. this is truth about the popularity of sunni islam over shia, and also the popularity of ashari over muutazila. shirvan omitted to mention that the muutazilla doctrine had been an official state doctrine of the abbasids for over 100years before it was replaced with ashari. secondly, there were other factors that contributed to the loss of interest in science and research in the muslim ummah. for one, there was the debate on philosophy between alghazali on one hand and the other muslim intellectuals on the other such as ibn sina and alfarabi. now it must be understood that philosophy was not simply regarded as a debate on logic and prepositions, it included mathematics and other branches of science at the time. the work of alghazali on the incoherence of philosophers left an indelible mark on the muslim umma. more than the rejection of muutazila ideology, the work of alghazali sealed the faith of the muslim intellectuals from adventurous scholarship (where the quest for knowledge led an apt muslim pupil to venture anywhere in search of knowledge) to the pious scholarship( where a muslim pupil is motivated to gain knowledge for the sake of worship). it must be stated here that the intention of alghazali was not to dissuade learning, but he laid a sincere premise in his works. that since worshipping Allah is the purpose of human existance, then it will require knowledge to accomplish it. alghazali went further to categorise knowledge in to 3 major groups. the first is the knowledge of the deen or religious studies. here we have subjects such as fiqh or islamic jurisprudence, kalam or islamic theology, arabic grammer or lugga and nahwu, balagha or rhetoric ect. in the second group, we have mathematics, medicine, chemistry and the wide philosophy etc. in the third group was astrology, divination, siannce, palmistry, studies in the occult and esoteric beliefs. for alghazali, a muslim should reject the third group because it corrupts the mind and soul, also, it is prohibited in islam as forms of magic. the second group is useful but a muslim should not waste his time on them. the first group is the best because it brings one closer to his Lord. therefore, alghazali demonstrated how to seek useful knowledge and the majority of the muslim population accepted this. thirdly, the rise of sufism which insisted on purification of the soul through devotional acts completely laid to rest the role of science and technology in the muslim world. it should be noted that the muslim umma found itself at a crossed road where they had to chose between materialism or spiritualism. the like of alghazali and the emergence of various sufi tariqas led the ummah towards spirituality. therefore, the west and other parts of the world were accepting secularism and athiesm, while the majority of the muslim umma rejected godlessness and hung to islamic beliefs. surprisingly, the scientific basis for the destruction of religious belief such as the stages of creation of the universe in the bible, like in genesis when life and plants and animals were created before the sun, as the sun was necessary for photosynthesis of plants, and the way other religions fell victim of science was very different from islam. for islam, the quran is the word of God, and God knew everything. the quran mentions the stages of development of a fetus in the womb. it was very accurate. it seemed as if islam was impervious to the power off science unlike other religions.
    finally, i encourage shirvan to abandon a narrow and shia interpretation and conception of history. there are facts abound. the intention of shia scholar, intellectuals and followers has been to demonize sunni islam as responsible for every woe befalling the umma, from the tragedy in karbala to the israeli aggression. once more, shirvan presented a clueless and despotic sunni abbassid in contrast to the enterprising and progressive fatimid shia. i will mention two things about that here. one, the fatimids practised a form of esoteric religion that on draws on islam. the population of egypt refused to accept that from of religion notwithstanding the emense missionary activities of the ismailis and the fatimid regime. theregime fell to the hero of islam, saladin. surprisingly, only shias and morden day knight templers regard saladeen as a failure. two, the only way Iran bacame shia was as a result of the ethic cleansing and genocide perpetrated by the safavid against sunnis. the sunnis were killed and shias from across the world were invited to settle in iran. we also remember nadir shah who converted to sunni islam. the napoleon of the east. had he not died due to assassination, he would have reconverted iran to sunni islam. sooner or later, we will have a united umma, and it will surely come to pass.

  45. And there you have it at around 4 minutes, the problem with all dogmatic religions "Reason must be subservient to revelation". No progress can be made with such a mindset!

  46. Just discovered your channel. Great videos! On the question why there are so many uneducated people in Muslim countries there is obviously other reasons. One is natural resources. If you have alot of resources, you don't need educated people. Many muslim countries have oil or other valuable minderals they can exploit.
    Watch CPGgrey's "rules for rules" on this. Anyways, keep up the good work.

  47. the muslims were so concerned and caring for science and helping society. they should have concentrated on making guns and weapons like the west.

  48. 11:37 Turkish nations such as the bulgars ??????? I mean you eider just read a name and did not care to check it or i hope you meant something else .Bulgarians were never and will never bee turks although we were been under their rule for 500 years we are a completely distinct nation with so much history and culture from before the turks .

  49. Here is what I don't get. If these Islamic scholars saw a problem with the idea that atoms with independent properties had their own causal powers because this idea was inconsistent with Predestination, weren't there attempts to overcome this in such a way that didn't stifle science? For instance, John Calvin whose theological movement is characterized by its strong views on Predestination, didn't seem to see the same problem with atoms having their own properties do. Second, wouldn't a mechanistic view successfully address concerns concerning Predestination, or perhaps a Newtonian view of matter? It seems like they were so tantalizingly close to these types of developments. In fact, I bet that had an alien species been witness to the state of the sciences in the Islamic world at that time they probably would have expected such a development.

    Also, since they were so big on the ancient Greeks, couldn't try to overcome the apparent inconsistencies involving the properties of matter by analyzing causation in terms of Aristotle's four types of causation (material cause, formal cause, efficient cause, final cause)? They must have been aware of this, why didn't it help?

  50. Found it even more boring than video 2 (I liked video 1 though), because it is so few about science and so much about history of powers or political history.

  51. @CaspianReport seems to be on a mission to prove FAKE contributions of Islam in Science that they has to do 5 videos about it. I have studies history and confidently say that Islam has had absolutely NO original contributions to science. However arab trader did take science from other parts of the world and translate it into arabic and falsely claimed it their own e.g. Algebra from India, Astronomy from Greece, Medicine from China, etc all of which was developed before the birth of Muhammed!! Just google "Sulbha Sutras" for example.

  52. Have you guys considered putting all episodes of “Science in Islam” together in a podcast? It would be really nice 🙂

  53. for how deep we think is a matter of thought because like in Quran in surah naml there's a incident where ants do communicate which seemed funny to mutazilte because at that time it was not discovered that ants can also do communicate like humans but now we know it was a true incident so rationalism failed.

  54. Occasionalism DOES sound like a lot of quantum theory these days, especially where there are particles that seem to have causality backwards into time.

    Are we so certain the Ash'ari were wrong?

  55. So according to Shirvan who is clearly Muslim or at least has a bias towards Islam that is typical of Muslims, the Crusades were caused by Christian pilgrimages, and the Dark Ages have no cause worth mentioning.

    How about this, Muslim conquests of half the Mediterranean coastland led to a collapse of Christian economies. The CHRISTIAN/GREEK centers of learning in Syria and Egypt were captured by Muslims and this repository of knowledge and human capital which was subverted to Islam fueled the so called “Islamic Golden Age.” A more accurate characterization would be an era of continued Greek and Persian learning.

    If Muslims had not conquered the Christian coasts of the Levant and North Africa, then there would have been no Dark Ages in Europe, no age of scientific advancement under Muslim rule, and no Crusades to take what Muslims stole by murder and enslavement.

    Also Shirvan idiotically calls the Rashidun redistribution of plunder “the first welfare state,” as if the welfare state as we understand it is funded by the theft and sale of foreigners and their property.

    Shirvan ignores Greek and Roman welfare policies that were not financed primarily by conquest. Shirvan constantly over emphasizes Muslim innovation and accomplishment while down playing the Greek Giants and forced converts who gave the actual context for so called “Muslim science.” Let’s not pretend that denying access to public offices, grants, and trade and scholarship opportunities amounts to anything short of forced conversion. Being given the choice between third class citizenship and conversion is not freedom of religion or a free choice, coercion is plainly being used, and was used for the entirety of Muslim history. The reason that the Middle East is practically devoid of Christians is because of these coercive practices by Muslims who want to portray themselves as benevolent founders of science.

    #typical #biased #muslim

  56. Great job, I'm really enjoying the series!
    One correction tho, the Ja'fari school of thought covers both theology and jurisprudence. Tho espousing rationalism and free will, it wasn't influenced by the Mu'tazila, rather they grew more or less together. The Ja'fari school is named after Imaam Ja'far al Saadiq (as), a contemporary and teacher of the founder of the Hanafi school a generation before Imaam ibn Hanbal.

  57. Happy to be an Asharite!!!
    And ashari are compatibalists while Mutazilites are libertarians and we all which one is stronger dont we?

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